Mormons, Popes, and those in the Kingdom Hall confess a doctrine of sin, but one they can overcome. It is certainlhy an important doctrinal issue to emphasis what is "real grace" and a true awareness of "real grace" will never be uunderstood until "real sin" is acknowledged.
To say, "I confess sin, the sin (or wrath of God) that I can ropitiate by my decision, choice and and faith; where the basis of my atonement and reconcilation is hinged on my decision, choice, and faith" is not any closer of a true confession of sin than a Mormon or Pope. It is inconsistent to say Jesus is God, and Jesus bled, and Jesus raised himself, but then assert this Jesus has not done enough to secure my regeneration, atonement, reconcilation, savlation.
How can one call it grace, while saying the sinner makes the ultimate and pivotal difference?
Saturday, January 30, 2010
Thursday, January 28, 2010
Various Issues 1
By David Barbour:
Todd, ,,
first of all, the Bible as a whole does not teach that,[Limited Atonement.]
,,,,secondly, if it did, why on earth would you want to boast of it. If it were true, you're Happy about it????
You know, I've watched your posts for several months now,,, I'm sure I've not seen them all, but the great majority of the ones I've seen are,,,,, * Anti free will* At what ...level do you want to take this choice thing,,, will you choose to respond to this? *Never do I see a concern from you for the Lost, or the reprobate as you call them* ,,
*Never do I see you reaching out to the Lost,,who knows, maybe you'll uncover one of your elected brothers* I'm sorry brother, but if I believed for one moment in the type of God that you portray in your posts, I'd denounce him today,,,,,,
Yes, man had no choice in his first birth,,,, but may I say this...... Think about something.... Man,,who had no choice in his first birth,,and apparently according to you, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with his second birth,,,,, You're saying man's responsible for his sinful life,,,, but most will never have a chance of salvation,,
The God I know and that lives in me would NEVER CRIPPLE A MAN AND THEN BLAME THE MAN FOR LIMPING. I''m certainly about done arguing about this silly stuff. I may post one more later tonite and then I'm done. This is rediculous. You're really hung up on one topic and neglecting the rest of scripture.
--------------
Todd's reply:
#1. It does teach it, are you interested in reading the evidence, and responding to it.[Limited Atonement]
#2. Since it does teach it, I do want to boast in what the Bible teaches, in what God says, I am happy about what the Bible teaches, in what God says.
#3. You are correct, a hefty bulk of my FB post address the issue of free-will. I keep an archive on my 118min blog.
#4. A proper denial of free-will, is a key facet of confessing the sin of self-reliance and self-righteousness, which confession of sin is one of the first fruits and evidences of regeneration. Thus this is a concern for the lost in exposing them their pride and sin.
#5. If you would like I could post my efforts to evangelize in the past 8 years. Jails, Prisons, Mormons, Kingdom Hall, Atheists, Nursing Homes, Masons, 70 tracts in Boston Mass, to a saleman I met while on Vacation, and the frequency of each. I also consider witnessing to non-Calvinists (Arminians) as Evangelism to the lost, since I consider them unregenerate.
#6. Right, man has nothing to do whatsoever in his second birth; Just like Lazarus had nothing to do with coming alive when Jesus commanded him to come alive.
#7. Yes man is responsible for his sin and condition. Timothy McVeigh was responsible for the Bombing, but no man can "make-up" for that much devestation of property and life. Yet the courts held him responsible though he could never fix the problem he created. (your thoughts???)
#8 Even today 2400 languages do not have a bible in their language, how many more did not have one a 1000 years ago. What "chance" of salvation did they have?
#9 Adam sinned, Adam died spiritually before physically; "Death" did not "have-to-be" the punishment, God could have made it "eternal color blindness" but yet "eternal life in paradise otherwise." So Adam is to blame for his disobedience and his punishment. God was not required to make Adam immutable before the fall, nor omnipotent before the Fall. Since God knew Adam would sin, and knew most in Adam would go to Hell, God could have easily decided to never put the tree in the garden in the first place.
#10 I am hung-up on it, because it humbles man's pride, and exalts God's grace. It exalts God's freedom and Sovereignty giving Him alone all the glory.
#11. The key point of your post and key deduction is...you simply denounce God.
Todd, ,,
first of all, the Bible as a whole does not teach that,[Limited Atonement.]
,,,,secondly, if it did, why on earth would you want to boast of it. If it were true, you're Happy about it????
You know, I've watched your posts for several months now,,, I'm sure I've not seen them all, but the great majority of the ones I've seen are,,,,, * Anti free will* At what ...level do you want to take this choice thing,,, will you choose to respond to this? *Never do I see a concern from you for the Lost, or the reprobate as you call them* ,,
*Never do I see you reaching out to the Lost,,who knows, maybe you'll uncover one of your elected brothers* I'm sorry brother, but if I believed for one moment in the type of God that you portray in your posts, I'd denounce him today,,,,,,
Yes, man had no choice in his first birth,,,, but may I say this...... Think about something.... Man,,who had no choice in his first birth,,and apparently according to you, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with his second birth,,,,, You're saying man's responsible for his sinful life,,,, but most will never have a chance of salvation,,
The God I know and that lives in me would NEVER CRIPPLE A MAN AND THEN BLAME THE MAN FOR LIMPING. I''m certainly about done arguing about this silly stuff. I may post one more later tonite and then I'm done. This is rediculous. You're really hung up on one topic and neglecting the rest of scripture.
--------------
Todd's reply:
#1. It does teach it, are you interested in reading the evidence, and responding to it.[Limited Atonement]
#2. Since it does teach it, I do want to boast in what the Bible teaches, in what God says, I am happy about what the Bible teaches, in what God says.
#3. You are correct, a hefty bulk of my FB post address the issue of free-will. I keep an archive on my 118min blog.
#4. A proper denial of free-will, is a key facet of confessing the sin of self-reliance and self-righteousness, which confession of sin is one of the first fruits and evidences of regeneration. Thus this is a concern for the lost in exposing them their pride and sin.
#5. If you would like I could post my efforts to evangelize in the past 8 years. Jails, Prisons, Mormons, Kingdom Hall, Atheists, Nursing Homes, Masons, 70 tracts in Boston Mass, to a saleman I met while on Vacation, and the frequency of each. I also consider witnessing to non-Calvinists (Arminians) as Evangelism to the lost, since I consider them unregenerate.
#6. Right, man has nothing to do whatsoever in his second birth; Just like Lazarus had nothing to do with coming alive when Jesus commanded him to come alive.
#7. Yes man is responsible for his sin and condition. Timothy McVeigh was responsible for the Bombing, but no man can "make-up" for that much devestation of property and life. Yet the courts held him responsible though he could never fix the problem he created. (your thoughts???)
#8 Even today 2400 languages do not have a bible in their language, how many more did not have one a 1000 years ago. What "chance" of salvation did they have?
#9 Adam sinned, Adam died spiritually before physically; "Death" did not "have-to-be" the punishment, God could have made it "eternal color blindness" but yet "eternal life in paradise otherwise." So Adam is to blame for his disobedience and his punishment. God was not required to make Adam immutable before the fall, nor omnipotent before the Fall. Since God knew Adam would sin, and knew most in Adam would go to Hell, God could have easily decided to never put the tree in the garden in the first place.
#10 I am hung-up on it, because it humbles man's pride, and exalts God's grace. It exalts God's freedom and Sovereignty giving Him alone all the glory.
#11. The key point of your post and key deduction is...you simply denounce God.
Tuesday, January 26, 2010
Whosoever short intro
"the living ones will not be buried, but have every lasting life" "the ones not living will not see life, but are appointed to burial already." (Whosever is not in the text; the term says nothing about who can make themselves alive, or who can make themself believe.)
added from another source:----
The original text has pas, "all, everyone," "whosoever" is an old English translation. Everyone who believes -- are those who will not perish. There is no statement about the ability of spiritually dead humans (Eph 2) here. The promise is to all-the-ones who believe---they will not perish. Before they believed, or even saw the kingdom of God or entered it (by faith and repentance) they were first born from above John 3:1-8, 1 John 5:1.
---------------------------------------
added from another source:----
The original text has pas, "all, everyone," "whosoever" is an old English translation. Everyone who believes -- are those who will not perish. There is no statement about the ability of spiritually dead humans (Eph 2) here. The promise is to all-the-ones who believe---they will not perish. Before they believed, or even saw the kingdom of God or entered it (by faith and repentance) they were first born from above John 3:1-8, 1 John 5:1.
---------------------------------------
How was I regenerated.
A FB friend wants to know specifically how I was regenerated, I will use this blog for a reply, since it allows for more room to type. [and my reply is off-the-cuff, not one prepared over 3-4 days]
1. Regeneration is from John 3:3 and John 3:7 "born again": gennaō anōthen.
Thayer Definition:
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born 1b) to be begotten 1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaphorically 2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work
anōthen
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again
(but also a similar term used in 1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
"Born again": anagennaō
Thayer Definition:
1) to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaphorically to have one’s mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God Part of Speech: verb.
A. The Father elected me solely on the grace that is manifest in Jesus, theChrist.
B. The Father sent the Son to purchase me according solely on God's grace alone.
C. The Son agreed to purchase me and did purchase me since it pleased the Father to do so, and solely according to God's grace alone.
D. The Spirit agreed to regenerate me and all that Christ did purchase, as according to the pleasure of the Father to do so, and solely according to God's grace alone.
E. The Holy Spirit used the means of Scripture to draw me to Christ.
F. The Holy Spirit used His divine power "in time and space" to give me a new birth on the basis of the Father's election of me and the Son's purchase of me;
II. NOW, THE FRUIT MANITIFESTING THIS NEW BIRTH OF THE SPIRIT ALREADY GIVEN.
A. Upon having this gift of the new birth given to me, the Holy Spirit continued to use Scripture to reveal Christ as: Fully God, Fully Man, the King, THE Prophet, the High Priest, the Crucified Lamb of Atonement, the Risen Lord, the Savior, the Good Sheperd. I had spiritual eyes to see him, spiritual ears to hear him, a spiritual mind to know him, and a spiritual heart to love Him, a spiritual nature to trust AND believe Him.
[Fruit order: Spirit imparted, using Scripture, pointing to the Living Jesus, then I did Confess, Believe, Repent, be Baptized]
III. THE SPECIFICS, THE ABRIDGED VERSION DESPITE ITS LENGTH.
I grew up the son of a SBC pastor in the same parsonage for 19 years straight, and for 19 years attending 88% of every
1. AM, PM, Wed, service.
2. weekly youth events, yearly week camps from 7-12th grade.
3. kids choir, youth choir, adult choir, youth ensemble,
4. Royal Ambassadors,
5. 2 revivals of 4 days each year; Vacation Bible School; January Bible School.
6. 3-4 trips to revivals at other locations, or national conventions. (and more)
(Mental Assent) Somewhere around the age of 12-13 I walked down the aisle, said the prayer, didn't want to go to hell, didn't want Jesus to leave me, and got baptized. However, I do not believe in retrospect I was "born again" then. I did the same thing at a youth camp around 15, after telling the counselor I already believed what he said, he said, well you are coming for rededication then.
1988 Went to Alexander Central High School. Was bothered that teens got drunk, did weed, and fondled other girls, cursed in excess, and cheated in excess, mocked the Church, Christians, the Bible, and Jesus; and I knew they were in sin for doing all this stuff I would never do. (well, I did cuss, and I did cheat, among other things)
1992 Went to Wingate College. Had the same mentality as in High School. Even speaking for youth groups, telling them Jesus saves, God is wise trust Him, and avoid all the corrupt behavior I see going on at Wingate. Heard one discussion about Calvinism, but brushed it off, after all I've been a pastor's son for 19 years and dad never brought it up, so dad can't be wrong.
1996 Went to Seminary and Oak Grove Baptist Church; I thought if I become the next Steven Curtis Chapman I will really get peoples attention and start talking about the wisdom of Jesus and trusting Him. The topic of Calvinism came up about every 2 months over the 4 years; Each time I brushed it off on the same basis above, also merely wanting to play ping-pong, become the friend of lost ping-pong players, and then saying "Hey Jesus changed my life.".
2000 Was an Interim Pastor for 15 months, never discussed the Calvinism issue there, again, just visit the sick, get'em back in church, and say we need to trust in Jesus to forgive us. After 15 months I was called to be the pastor of a congregation in Pageland, SC. Started in September 2001.
I saw the complete apathy of the congregation to come, sing, read, pray, witness, learn, grow, mature. They had at least 3 main leaders as Masons, they had Santa Claus down the altar during the service, two years in a row, despite me preaching against it twice. They had a man on committee who was gay, and everyone knew it, and was puzzled over it, but did not want to offend the honor of his parents who were long time members.
So around March 2002, I gave away my only T.V. I committed to pray, read the Bible eight hours a day, think nothing but only of evangelism. I am going to know the Bible, memorize the Bible, and be a flame for Jesus. The TV was gone, the prayer list was long, the reading of the Bible was extensive; I decided in my fervor to destroy this Wingate conversation 6 years earlier that supported Calvinism, and settle in bold print all the assertions I heard about Calvinism about 20x while at seminary. I bought books on both sides, and wanted to catalog all the errors of Calvinist to refute them.
Also in this time I went drove to preach at a jail ministry weekly 35 minutes away without compensation, hoping God would bring revival even if this congregaton yawned at every song, every verse, every sermon, every prayer, and every warning. I went to 25 neigbhors on my street, knocking, asking, talking, listening, telling; Meanwhile PM and Wednesay services were only 7 of the same folk, one of who always antagonized all that I did. She defended the Masons, opposed devotions on the youth ski trip, and purposefully chattered to her mouth about her day directly and noticeably as I taught on the 1 Samuel. Frequently the other 5 would look over at her in frustration.
By October 2002, with 6 months of Scripture focus and prayer focus, [that never occured in Seminary because I was busy playing ping-pong and "gettin-by" to pass whatever class it was]
...God the Holy Spirit caused:
1. the T (Doctrine of Total Depravity) to destroy me from the Scripture;
2. The sheer freedom of God to do as He pleases to humble me.
3. The utter and absolute grace of God to silence me.
A. Apart from Christ I can do NOTHING. [extremely numbing] John 15:5
B. I choose you, you did not choose me. [jaw dropping] John 15:16
C. He began a good work in you. [not breathing inside]. Phil 1:6
D. My list of verses grew to 30-40.
E. I thought, "Why am I not having more purity in my life of self-promotion, self-centeredness, and lust when I have the divine power of the Holy Spirit helping me, and if I am having this much difficulty then how much harder if someone does not yet have the Holy Spirit and is left to their own mind, heart to love God."
I could paste 30 thick pages of my notes from that time, of Scriptures, book notes, unanswered questions; but I won't.
I knew people from:
-- my childhood church had made "decisions" but were lost.
-- the College Campus Church, resembled nothing of the Bible.
-- people at Oak Grove who should zero interest in Evangelism Explosion, nor the offered Prayer Ministry;
-- classes at Seminary of people who were once pastors but now apostate.
-- my first interim that where merely there for social reasons.
-- my current Pageland church, who showed no honor to Jesus or Scripture despite their attendance.
-- Masonic Apologetic Videos, men who asserted Jesus, Grace, and the Resurrection on Sunday, but asserted King Solomon, Works, Lies, and Secrets in stern loyalty to the lodge.
So what was wrong with these people??? John 2:23-24; and John 6 and Judas were part of the answer; Just like Pharaoh made numerous decisions to let the people go, but lied, and later was not a genuine God-fearer;
(Strong Drawing) So I think it was during that March to October 2002 when the Holy Spirit was strongly drawing me, (though He was doing so, in partial, for years)
(New Birth) Then somewhere in October-November 2002 is when the "new birth" (I.F) was given to me, then the Holy Spirit produced all the fruit of the "new birth" that November via II.A; But that new birth was just as mysterious as John 3:8 promises.
(Fruit of the New Birth)My confession of sin, trust in Jesus, love to Jesus, knowing of Jesus, repentance of self, in November was only fruits AFTER the regeneration had occured that month.
You may ask, "What was different from that month from all that existed since you were 12-13 walking down the aisle to that age of 27.5? 14-15 years of even going to Seminary, 2 years of preaching, and talking about Jesus saving?"
A lot. Mental assent to facts is not geninue trust in Jesus, and a verbal statement of sin, guilt, need, and grace is not a geninue belief in the true sin, guilt, need, and grace. Deep down for all these 15 years I adamantly defended that it was my decision, faith, prayer, choice, to be the fundamental basis of my salvation; that I was able. That God was obligated to give everyone a choice;
I learned that denying:
A. Total Depravity is to confess a different definiton of sin, guilt, need.
Thus, one has not confessed sin truly; nor repented of self truly.
B. Unconditional Election, is to confess a conditional election of works.
Thus, one is not resting on grace, but on contribution and the law of pentecost- rules being kept and repaid as a wage.
C. Definite Atonement, is to deny Jesus and His work altogether. Which, is to live a life void of faith in Jesus and His work.
D. Effectual Grace,is to deny the sovereign power of God over the mind, heart, and nature. and paints God is impotent, without power, and thus a form of idolatry, deism, or atheism.
E. Preservation of the Saints by God, is to deny the promise of God, but must be denied if one is consistent in holding to the power of free-will and man's decisions.
F. These Doctrines, is to deny clear, repeated, abundant passages of Scripture; Precisely of what Jesus said of the Pharisees not knowing Moses or Scripture.
Ok, I could add more, explain more, clarify more, and edit more, this is not trying to be exhaustive nor beyond the need for revision.
To summarize, the topic is, "How, specifically, was I born again?"
In Short, by the Holy Spirit alone, using Scripture alone, pointing me to Jesus Alone, by grace alone.
[EXTERNALS] My time in Scripture and prayer whether it be: 27 years as a pastor's son, finishing 4 years of seminary, 3 years of preaching, 9 months of deeply intense study of the Bible, or 1 month of being speechless at my helpless evil heart--- are not point to anything I did of mind, heart, nature, or independent will. God gives the rain, the ground need not boast that it caused that to be given.
My afternoon that November 2002 of sobbing, and sobbing, and sobbing, over my guilt, sin, hopelessness, evilness, need, unworthiness, repulsion, shame before the Holy God of billions of stars, billions of angels, and billions of angels, ...[INTERNALS] was the beginning fruits after the "grace of regeneration", ... had ALREADY OCCURED PRIOR TO THE SOBBING AND CONFESSION.
To attempt to pin point anything more specific is to go agaisnt the clear teaching of John 3:8 where no man knows where the wind comes or goes.
---------
It would be like answering the following questions:
How did John the Baptist get the Holy Spirit while in the womb?
How did Lazarus "choose" to come back to life?
How did Saul "choose" to get a blinding light.
How did Moses "choose" to stumble on a burning bush.
How did Samuel "choose" to hear his name called.
How did Isaac "choose" to be born to Abraham and not Pharaoh.
How did anyone "choose" their own physical birth.
How did Abram "choose" to stumble on YHWH and the Genesis 12 covenant while living among the moon gods of his culture.
How did infants "choose" a Lamb to be slaughtered with blood covering the door posts for their life at Passover.
How did Mary "choose" to be born in the line of Kings and be the specific woman to carry the God-man.
------------------
I was confessing my sin as sin indeed. But it was not my confession that caused the new birth, it was the new birth that cause the confession.
I was repenting of self. But it was not the repentance that caused the new birth, it was the new birth that caused the repenting which is on-going.
I was believing and trusting in Jesus as: Fully God, Fully Man, the King, THE Prophet, the High Priest, the Crucified Lamb of Atonement, the Risen Lord, the Savior, the Good Sheperd. But it was not my believing and trust in Jesus in these offices that caused my new birth, it was the new birth that caused this belief and trust in Jesus.
I was bearing the fruit of regeneration (confession, repentance, belief, faith, loving Jesus, knowing Jesus), but it was not the bearing of fruit that caused my regeneration, it was God's grace of regeneration that bore the fruit from the Holy Spirit.
1. Regeneration is from John 3:3 and John 3:7 "born again": gennaō anōthen.
Thayer Definition:
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born 1b) to be begotten 1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaphorically 2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work
anōthen
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again
(but also a similar term used in 1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
"Born again": anagennaō
Thayer Definition:
1) to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaphorically to have one’s mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God Part of Speech: verb.
A. The Father elected me solely on the grace that is manifest in Jesus, theChrist.
B. The Father sent the Son to purchase me according solely on God's grace alone.
C. The Son agreed to purchase me and did purchase me since it pleased the Father to do so, and solely according to God's grace alone.
D. The Spirit agreed to regenerate me and all that Christ did purchase, as according to the pleasure of the Father to do so, and solely according to God's grace alone.
E. The Holy Spirit used the means of Scripture to draw me to Christ.
F. The Holy Spirit used His divine power "in time and space" to give me a new birth on the basis of the Father's election of me and the Son's purchase of me;
II. NOW, THE FRUIT MANITIFESTING THIS NEW BIRTH OF THE SPIRIT ALREADY GIVEN.
A. Upon having this gift of the new birth given to me, the Holy Spirit continued to use Scripture to reveal Christ as: Fully God, Fully Man, the King, THE Prophet, the High Priest, the Crucified Lamb of Atonement, the Risen Lord, the Savior, the Good Sheperd. I had spiritual eyes to see him, spiritual ears to hear him, a spiritual mind to know him, and a spiritual heart to love Him, a spiritual nature to trust AND believe Him.
[Fruit order: Spirit imparted, using Scripture, pointing to the Living Jesus, then I did Confess, Believe, Repent, be Baptized]
III. THE SPECIFICS, THE ABRIDGED VERSION DESPITE ITS LENGTH.
I grew up the son of a SBC pastor in the same parsonage for 19 years straight, and for 19 years attending 88% of every
1. AM, PM, Wed, service.
2. weekly youth events, yearly week camps from 7-12th grade.
3. kids choir, youth choir, adult choir, youth ensemble,
4. Royal Ambassadors,
5. 2 revivals of 4 days each year; Vacation Bible School; January Bible School.
6. 3-4 trips to revivals at other locations, or national conventions. (and more)
(Mental Assent) Somewhere around the age of 12-13 I walked down the aisle, said the prayer, didn't want to go to hell, didn't want Jesus to leave me, and got baptized. However, I do not believe in retrospect I was "born again" then. I did the same thing at a youth camp around 15, after telling the counselor I already believed what he said, he said, well you are coming for rededication then.
1988 Went to Alexander Central High School. Was bothered that teens got drunk, did weed, and fondled other girls, cursed in excess, and cheated in excess, mocked the Church, Christians, the Bible, and Jesus; and I knew they were in sin for doing all this stuff I would never do. (well, I did cuss, and I did cheat, among other things)
1992 Went to Wingate College. Had the same mentality as in High School. Even speaking for youth groups, telling them Jesus saves, God is wise trust Him, and avoid all the corrupt behavior I see going on at Wingate. Heard one discussion about Calvinism, but brushed it off, after all I've been a pastor's son for 19 years and dad never brought it up, so dad can't be wrong.
1996 Went to Seminary and Oak Grove Baptist Church; I thought if I become the next Steven Curtis Chapman I will really get peoples attention and start talking about the wisdom of Jesus and trusting Him. The topic of Calvinism came up about every 2 months over the 4 years; Each time I brushed it off on the same basis above, also merely wanting to play ping-pong, become the friend of lost ping-pong players, and then saying "Hey Jesus changed my life.".
2000 Was an Interim Pastor for 15 months, never discussed the Calvinism issue there, again, just visit the sick, get'em back in church, and say we need to trust in Jesus to forgive us. After 15 months I was called to be the pastor of a congregation in Pageland, SC. Started in September 2001.
I saw the complete apathy of the congregation to come, sing, read, pray, witness, learn, grow, mature. They had at least 3 main leaders as Masons, they had Santa Claus down the altar during the service, two years in a row, despite me preaching against it twice. They had a man on committee who was gay, and everyone knew it, and was puzzled over it, but did not want to offend the honor of his parents who were long time members.
So around March 2002, I gave away my only T.V. I committed to pray, read the Bible eight hours a day, think nothing but only of evangelism. I am going to know the Bible, memorize the Bible, and be a flame for Jesus. The TV was gone, the prayer list was long, the reading of the Bible was extensive; I decided in my fervor to destroy this Wingate conversation 6 years earlier that supported Calvinism, and settle in bold print all the assertions I heard about Calvinism about 20x while at seminary. I bought books on both sides, and wanted to catalog all the errors of Calvinist to refute them.
Also in this time I went drove to preach at a jail ministry weekly 35 minutes away without compensation, hoping God would bring revival even if this congregaton yawned at every song, every verse, every sermon, every prayer, and every warning. I went to 25 neigbhors on my street, knocking, asking, talking, listening, telling; Meanwhile PM and Wednesay services were only 7 of the same folk, one of who always antagonized all that I did. She defended the Masons, opposed devotions on the youth ski trip, and purposefully chattered to her mouth about her day directly and noticeably as I taught on the 1 Samuel. Frequently the other 5 would look over at her in frustration.
By October 2002, with 6 months of Scripture focus and prayer focus, [that never occured in Seminary because I was busy playing ping-pong and "gettin-by" to pass whatever class it was]
...God the Holy Spirit caused:
1. the T (Doctrine of Total Depravity) to destroy me from the Scripture;
2. The sheer freedom of God to do as He pleases to humble me.
3. The utter and absolute grace of God to silence me.
A. Apart from Christ I can do NOTHING. [extremely numbing] John 15:5
B. I choose you, you did not choose me. [jaw dropping] John 15:16
C. He began a good work in you. [not breathing inside]. Phil 1:6
D. My list of verses grew to 30-40.
E. I thought, "Why am I not having more purity in my life of self-promotion, self-centeredness, and lust when I have the divine power of the Holy Spirit helping me, and if I am having this much difficulty then how much harder if someone does not yet have the Holy Spirit and is left to their own mind, heart to love God."
I could paste 30 thick pages of my notes from that time, of Scriptures, book notes, unanswered questions; but I won't.
I knew people from:
-- my childhood church had made "decisions" but were lost.
-- the College Campus Church, resembled nothing of the Bible.
-- people at Oak Grove who should zero interest in Evangelism Explosion, nor the offered Prayer Ministry;
-- classes at Seminary of people who were once pastors but now apostate.
-- my first interim that where merely there for social reasons.
-- my current Pageland church, who showed no honor to Jesus or Scripture despite their attendance.
-- Masonic Apologetic Videos, men who asserted Jesus, Grace, and the Resurrection on Sunday, but asserted King Solomon, Works, Lies, and Secrets in stern loyalty to the lodge.
So what was wrong with these people??? John 2:23-24; and John 6 and Judas were part of the answer; Just like Pharaoh made numerous decisions to let the people go, but lied, and later was not a genuine God-fearer;
(Strong Drawing) So I think it was during that March to October 2002 when the Holy Spirit was strongly drawing me, (though He was doing so, in partial, for years)
(New Birth) Then somewhere in October-November 2002 is when the "new birth" (I.F) was given to me, then the Holy Spirit produced all the fruit of the "new birth" that November via II.A; But that new birth was just as mysterious as John 3:8 promises.
(Fruit of the New Birth)My confession of sin, trust in Jesus, love to Jesus, knowing of Jesus, repentance of self, in November was only fruits AFTER the regeneration had occured that month.
You may ask, "What was different from that month from all that existed since you were 12-13 walking down the aisle to that age of 27.5? 14-15 years of even going to Seminary, 2 years of preaching, and talking about Jesus saving?"
A lot. Mental assent to facts is not geninue trust in Jesus, and a verbal statement of sin, guilt, need, and grace is not a geninue belief in the true sin, guilt, need, and grace. Deep down for all these 15 years I adamantly defended that it was my decision, faith, prayer, choice, to be the fundamental basis of my salvation; that I was able. That God was obligated to give everyone a choice;
I learned that denying:
A. Total Depravity is to confess a different definiton of sin, guilt, need.
Thus, one has not confessed sin truly; nor repented of self truly.
B. Unconditional Election, is to confess a conditional election of works.
Thus, one is not resting on grace, but on contribution and the law of pentecost- rules being kept and repaid as a wage.
C. Definite Atonement, is to deny Jesus and His work altogether. Which, is to live a life void of faith in Jesus and His work.
D. Effectual Grace,is to deny the sovereign power of God over the mind, heart, and nature. and paints God is impotent, without power, and thus a form of idolatry, deism, or atheism.
E. Preservation of the Saints by God, is to deny the promise of God, but must be denied if one is consistent in holding to the power of free-will and man's decisions.
F. These Doctrines, is to deny clear, repeated, abundant passages of Scripture; Precisely of what Jesus said of the Pharisees not knowing Moses or Scripture.
Ok, I could add more, explain more, clarify more, and edit more, this is not trying to be exhaustive nor beyond the need for revision.
To summarize, the topic is, "How, specifically, was I born again?"
In Short, by the Holy Spirit alone, using Scripture alone, pointing me to Jesus Alone, by grace alone.
[EXTERNALS] My time in Scripture and prayer whether it be: 27 years as a pastor's son, finishing 4 years of seminary, 3 years of preaching, 9 months of deeply intense study of the Bible, or 1 month of being speechless at my helpless evil heart--- are not point to anything I did of mind, heart, nature, or independent will. God gives the rain, the ground need not boast that it caused that to be given.
My afternoon that November 2002 of sobbing, and sobbing, and sobbing, over my guilt, sin, hopelessness, evilness, need, unworthiness, repulsion, shame before the Holy God of billions of stars, billions of angels, and billions of angels, ...[INTERNALS] was the beginning fruits after the "grace of regeneration", ... had ALREADY OCCURED PRIOR TO THE SOBBING AND CONFESSION.
To attempt to pin point anything more specific is to go agaisnt the clear teaching of John 3:8 where no man knows where the wind comes or goes.
---------
It would be like answering the following questions:
How did John the Baptist get the Holy Spirit while in the womb?
How did Lazarus "choose" to come back to life?
How did Saul "choose" to get a blinding light.
How did Moses "choose" to stumble on a burning bush.
How did Samuel "choose" to hear his name called.
How did Isaac "choose" to be born to Abraham and not Pharaoh.
How did anyone "choose" their own physical birth.
How did Abram "choose" to stumble on YHWH and the Genesis 12 covenant while living among the moon gods of his culture.
How did infants "choose" a Lamb to be slaughtered with blood covering the door posts for their life at Passover.
How did Mary "choose" to be born in the line of Kings and be the specific woman to carry the God-man.
------------------
I was confessing my sin as sin indeed. But it was not my confession that caused the new birth, it was the new birth that cause the confession.
I was repenting of self. But it was not the repentance that caused the new birth, it was the new birth that caused the repenting which is on-going.
I was believing and trusting in Jesus as: Fully God, Fully Man, the King, THE Prophet, the High Priest, the Crucified Lamb of Atonement, the Risen Lord, the Savior, the Good Sheperd. But it was not my believing and trust in Jesus in these offices that caused my new birth, it was the new birth that caused this belief and trust in Jesus.
I was bearing the fruit of regeneration (confession, repentance, belief, faith, loving Jesus, knowing Jesus), but it was not the bearing of fruit that caused my regeneration, it was God's grace of regeneration that bore the fruit from the Holy Spirit.
Author of Sin
God made creatues angels and men who were not immutable, omnscient, omnipotent. So God is the author of that; God is not under a law to make creatures with these traits. God is the author of the chain of command, laws, accountability, and judgment. God's nature, character, and being all require thost things by default. God answers to no one for... See More that; God answers to no one. God is not under a law, nor under man's tribunal. Without God upholding our breath, heart beat, and brain wave, we would not have the energy nor life to function. Yet the function we carry out within our own finite mind and nature is accountable to God when against His moral will. Man is drawn away of his own desire, and it has been God who left men alone in their own desire. God is not obligated to iimpart to upright Adam the same power and wisdom that God has.
Arminians still have a deity that knownly allowed Satan and Adam to rebel and even crucify Jesus, that the brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. (Genesis and Acts); They still have a deity that put the characters in motion without restraint. If Satan is the author of sin, or Adam is the author of sin, then God is still the author of Satan and the author of Adam. Again, God is a law unto himself and judged by no man or no law.
An author writes. When an author writes that his main character murders, we do not charge the author of sin, though the author could have written otherwise. We do not get angry with the author for placing the main character in front of a firing squad, and call him an immoral author. So I don't understand what the "charge against" Calvinism is attempting to say, other than they do not like God being God since they think they have the right to judge God;
Arminians still have a deity that knownly allowed Satan and Adam to rebel and even crucify Jesus, that the brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. (Genesis and Acts); They still have a deity that put the characters in motion without restraint. If Satan is the author of sin, or Adam is the author of sin, then God is still the author of Satan and the author of Adam. Again, God is a law unto himself and judged by no man or no law.
An author writes. When an author writes that his main character murders, we do not charge the author of sin, though the author could have written otherwise. We do not get angry with the author for placing the main character in front of a firing squad, and call him an immoral author. So I don't understand what the "charge against" Calvinism is attempting to say, other than they do not like God being God since they think they have the right to judge God;
Tuesday, January 12, 2010
Acts 15:7-9 (Topic 2)
Acts 15: 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
James Rondon said: "Even so, the follow-up passage in Acts 15 that I referenced indicates that, after Peter preached the gospel to them, they "believed", and their hearts were subsequently purified "by faith". "
Position Z of this new thread Topic 2: The implication is that, beforehand, their hearts had yet to be purified, and furthermore, that this was the point of their initial conversion.
=== MY REPLY ===
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
James Rondon said: "Even so, the follow-up passage in Acts 15 that I referenced indicates that, after Peter preached the gospel to them, they "believed", and their hearts were subsequently purified "by faith". "
Position Z of this new thread Topic 2: The implication is that, beforehand, their hearts had yet to be purified, and furthermore, that this was the point of their initial conversion.
=== MY REPLY ===
Cornelius; Works outside of Christ. (Topic 1)
This entry is merely an attempt to state the two positions and edit them to be accurate so neither stance is being misdefined.
Position X: Works outside of God's grace in Christ, not being sanctified by Christ, are NOT acceptable to God. (my position)
Position Z: Works outside of God's grace in Christ, not being sanctified by Christ, MIGHT BE acceptable to God.
If Position Z is not the position being taken, then what is a short concise manner of stating the issue, so to be sure I am addressing the issue and not a strawman.
Suggested Evidence for Position Z.
1.was it incumbent upon Cornelius to repent of his prayers, and even more, his alms?
2. Remember, he had not yet been converted (cf. Acts 11:14).
3. these "alms" had come up as a "memorial before God", and not as filthy rags.
4. the fact that he had yet to be saved,
5. at the time of conversion, one's good works stand in need of repentance. [of which you ask the question: was Cornelius to repent of his prayers and alms??? assuming a no reply, thus assuming PosZ is accurate.]
=== MY REPLY ===
Position X: Works outside of God's grace in Christ, not being sanctified by Christ, are NOT acceptable to God. (my position)
Position Z: Works outside of God's grace in Christ, not being sanctified by Christ, MIGHT BE acceptable to God.
If Position Z is not the position being taken, then what is a short concise manner of stating the issue, so to be sure I am addressing the issue and not a strawman.
Suggested Evidence for Position Z.
1.was it incumbent upon Cornelius to repent of his prayers, and even more, his alms?
2. Remember, he had not yet been converted (cf. Acts 11:14).
3. these "alms" had come up as a "memorial before God", and not as filthy rags.
4. the fact that he had yet to be saved,
5. at the time of conversion, one's good works stand in need of repentance. [of which you ask the question: was Cornelius to repent of his prayers and alms??? assuming a no reply, thus assuming PosZ is accurate.]
=== MY REPLY ===
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)